Questions from a Baptist  

Posted by Baron Korf in , ,

This is the first of an 11 part series called Questions from a Baptist. This was originally a series of questions posed to me through a friend for his friend's Humanities class. He asked 11 questions about the Catholic Church, and those are going to be the 11 spots here. I gave the answers to the best of my knowledge and with the understanding that they are not totally complete. Truly a whole book could be written on each one, and it wouldn't surprise me if there are.

  1. I understand that the Catholic Church is a church based in Christianity. For some time, the people of the Baptist Church have said that the Chatolics are misleading the people of the congregation by teaching them to pray to saints rather than directly to Christ. Do you believe this is accurate or do you believe their view is in error?
The term ‘catholic’ dates back to apostolic times. St Ignatius of Antioch (A.D. 50-117 circa) wrote in his letter to the Smyraeans “Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.” So yes the Catholic Church is Christianity, in its oldest and longest standing form.

The Catholic Church teaches a doctrine of intercessory prayer, which is where someone, in particular the Saints, prays at someone’s request and on their behalf. Often, this is misconstrued as a mandatory intermediate step between man and God. This, however, is simply false. Praying to the Saints, in its simplest explanation, is no different than asking a fellow Christian to pray for you. Saint is the English form of the Latin word Sanctus which means “holy”. It refers to those men and women who died in the friendship of our Lord and now attend Him in heaven. As all Christians believe, those who die as such are not really dead, but are alive in Christ. Not only that, but they are not removed from the community of Christians. As our Lord told us “I am the vine and you are the branches” and St. Paul tells us that we are all part of the Body of Christ. So in a very real way we are still connected to these Holy Souls. This is what the Catholic Church calls “The Communion of Saints.”

The Saints, being in Heaven and in the presence of Almighty God, are now free from all sin and temptation. As such their prayers are much more focused, beautiful and complete than our own, and the prayers of those who follow the Lord are rewarded (Job 42:7-10). There is a two-fold benefit in this: One, we have holy and righteous souls praying on our behalf for our specific intentions. Two, the souls in heaven can continue to do the Lord’s work by praying for us, and such Christian love is pleasing to God.

This in no way takes from the importance of praying to God Himself. Catholics take a both/and approach to this rather than an either/or. Someone may pray to St. Francis of Assisi asking him to pray for a certain intention and then pray to God for the same intention. Then you have 2 people praying for the same thing. This goes to the parable of the unjust judge who keeps turning the woman away, but because she keeps pestering him he finally gives her what she asks for. Now Christ being the Just Judge, how much more will he listen to our petitions?

--The Baron
Ceterum autem censeo, Tabulam esse delendam!

This entry was posted on Saturday, April 25, 2009 at Saturday, April 25, 2009 and is filed under , , . You can follow any responses to this entry through the comments feed .

4 comments

Interesting series that you have here and I am glad that the answer was this and I agree with it.

Unfortunately, there are many Catholic churches out there that preach that we are with sin and because of this we are not worthy to pray to Jesus himself but need to pray to the saints or the Virgin Mary to make intercessions for us.

So I am glad that you belong or believe that this is false and indeed a lie that has exempt many from the true riches which have been purchased for us at the cross.

I do however disagree with this point: "The Saints, being in Heaven and in the presence of Almighty God, are now free from all sin and temptation. As such their prayers are much more focused, beautiful and complete than our own". I believe that each believer when we pray to God, He will listen no matter how simple or rudimentary the prayer maybe because of Jesus who is our High Priest.

As what is says in Hebrews 5:9–10, when Jesus died and rose again, He became our High Priest. But notice that Jesus’ priesthood is “according to the order of Melchizedek”. Why the Melchizedek priesthood?

The Melchizedek priesthood gives to man (whereas the Aaronic priesthood takes from man). We see this when Melchizedek gave bread and wine to refresh a tired Abraham after his battle with the enemy kings. (Genesis 14:14–20) So if Jesus’ priesthood is according to the Melchizedek order, then it is one in which we can come boldly into His presence to receive from Him! (Hebrews 4:16)

So we can be bold and pray to Him directly, we can ask other to pray for us, like what you said with the saints but that is more a prayer in agreement rather than asking them to pray more "powerfully". We have been given the right and the authority by Jesus's finished work!

Hecan
PS: I think I got a little carried away, I do really enjoy your blog!

May 11, 2009 10:42 PM

By our own merits, we are not worthy to pray to Jesus. However He gave Himself to us to be reconciled to God. I have never heard of a priest teach that we cannot pray to Jesus, this is completely contrary to our theology (i.e. not Catholic).

Of course God will listen to every prayer, no matter who says it. But my point is the prayers of the Saints are often more pleasing to God since all stain of sin is gone from them, I however am still a sinner.

I'm not sure the point you are making with Melchizedek. The order of Melchizedek is important for many reasons. One of which is all of Israel, through their Patriarch Abraham, offered him tribute with a tithe. Ergo the Levitical priesthood is subject to the priesthood of Melchizedek.

The bread an wine were not just refreshments, but a sacrifice to the One God. This prefigures the Last Supper, which is the bloodless form of the sacrifice on the Cross, and is perpetuated in the Catholic Mass by our priests who are priests "forever in the order of Melchizedek".

May 12, 2009 8:34 AM

The point of Melchizedek is to show the parallel between him and Jesus. As such Jesus is now our heavenly high priest. Just as Melchizedek gave Abraham bread and wine, Jesus has given us bread and wine, which yes, are not just refreshments but as a symbol of the His finished work at the cross that was to come.

As such, as it is said in 1 John 2:1, My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

So not only is Jesus our Heavenly High Priest but an Advocate against the accuser where Jesus qualifies each of us because of His broken body and spilled blood at the cross (as symbolized now as bread and wine).

So the point I was trying to make was that the saints in a manner of speaking are indeed just men who were chosen but Jesus too is a man who came down from Heaven but attained His heavenly position by rising again after His work at the cross. But Jesus can never be equated to the Saints His resurrection already puts Him at the right hand.

So if Jesus, is our Saviour, High Priest, Advocate and He is seated of God, who is the Judge of the universe, why on earth or in heaven would be want to go to the saints when we can go to Jesus directly? He has given us a blood bought right to come to Him, so why do we in a manner of speaking "drink so far down the river when we can go to the source for ultimate refreshment".

God Bless,

Hecan
PS: I have been hearing for the 20 plus years when I used to go to Catholic churches that because we are with sin we cannot partake of the Lord's supper that in itself is a disqualification from all things that Jesus has done for us.

May 12, 2009 7:52 PM

We don't go down stream. Christ is the source of salvation, the saints are not. However, you ask the saints to pray for you just as St Paul asked the various churches he wrote to to pray for him. If anyone was able to go directly to Christ in a very intimate way, it would be the apostle to the Gentiles, yet he still asked for others to pray for him as well. It is no different with the saints. They are still part of the Church, hence the title Communion of Saints.

Now the matter of the Lord's Supper is a different subject entirely. The worthy reception of Holy Communion is a warning from St. Paul himself.

"Therefore whoever eats the break or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself." (1 Cor 11:27-29)

The Church teaches that if you are in a state of mortal sin (turned away from God) then you go to Him in the sacrament of penance. Again we are told to go to Christ, not the saints.

May 12, 2009 9:24 PM

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